Zengobi Forums

george · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2007 Posts: 1986

As you all know, I'm in the midst of a major re-write of portions of Curio for the Curio 8 release set for early next year.

This has been a lot of fun, for the most part: the latest Xcode features, the latest Lion API calls, "modernized" UI, etc.

This process also includes scrapping my own autosave system for Lion's exciting integrated Autosave and Versions features.

Then I discovered this, rather interesting thread called "Lion and Keynote Problems" in Apple's Discussion forums:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3199161?start=0&tstart=0

This quote sums it up:

jjweimer · Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:12 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the notice. Here is a thought until Apple fixes the problem ...

Make Versions support an on/off setting per project ([ ] Enable Versions for this Project) . Provide an additional option to [ ] Only Invoke Versions Before Closing.

Here then is what would happen ...

* user sets Auto-Version (via Apple Versions) to OFF for the project
--> Curio disables the Only Invoke Versions Before Closing option
--> Curio runs its own auto-save program (optional)

* user sets Auto-Version to ON for the project
--> Curio enables the Only Invoke Versions Before Closing option
** user does NOT select the Only Invoke Versions Before Closing option
--> Curio envokes Versions every time the project is opened
--> Apple Versions is pre-emptive on the project
--> Curio's own autosave is disabled on the project (optional)
** user selects the Only Invoke Versions Before Closing option
--> Curio turns off Versions every time the project is opened
--> Curio's own autosave is disabled on the project (optional)
*** user closes the project
--> Curio puts up a "Warning -- Version in Progress on Project XYZ" dialog box and locks the project for further editing
--> Curio enables Versions before invoking the actions to actually close the project
--> Versions is invoked to do a backup
--> Curio gets a "versioning complete" message back from Versions
--> Curio turns off Versions for the project, unlocks the project to editing, removes the "Warning ... " dialog box, and gracefully closes the project

Whew! That is a lot of programming convolutions just to fix a problem with Apple's own design flaw. Even the most basic SVN systems do not run pre-emptive AFAIK.

EDIT: Oh! Yes, actually SVN does run pre-emptively. It is Time Machine that otherwise makes us think that versioning can be done "while we continue about doing editing".

--
JJW

george · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2007 Posts: 1986

Here's a new wrinkle: I forgot that Versions support is for the entire document class. That means it's either on or off for all projects. I can't actually do it on a project-by-project basis.

To be honest I'm really hoping Apple figures this out as it's a huge mess for their iWork applications. I'll come up with a workaround in the meantime but leave everything "turn on-able" if they do come up with a solution.

Regarding your suggested workflow one big problem is that Versions and Autosave is essentially a black box. Apple automatically determines when an autosave should occur and if a version should be created for safekeeping. You can also manually force an autosave version update (via File > Save Version) but normally the operation itself and therefore the timing is all under Apple's control. I don't believe I'm even told that it has internally determined that a version should be created, the autosave triggers it automatically if it deems it necessary.

jjweimer · Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:24 pm Post subject:

george · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2007 Posts: 1986

That's why I love my job! Wink

mnmcook · Joined: 31 May 2009 Posts: 196 Location: Pennsylvania

Well thanks for all the detail George. I certainly would rather have to save every so often than watch those beach balls. I find them annoying enough already when switching projects or waiting for the color palette to pop up.

I appreciate all you are having to deal with and especially that you are willing to share openly with everyone.

jshadow007 · Joined: 30 Oct 2009 Posts: 210

Yikes! Quite a mess Apple's made of things.

I'm thinking that at this point, anything you come up with is going to be more useful than Apple's one-size-fits-all approach.

I rather like Scrivener or Bento's approach, which gives you an option to back-up every time you quit, or prompts you if you haven't backed up in a while, and then puts a zipped copy of the project somewhere you want it.

NightStalker · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 83

Autosave, and the lack of "Save As" - another thing I loathe about Lion!!!

One thing I do with Photoshop is to play around with various filters, effects, layers, etc - just mucking about, doing tutorials, etc. And at the end of an hour or so, I just quit Photoshop. When prompted if I want to save the photo I've been using, I just have to say "Don't Save', and the original doesn't get over-written with all my experiments.

But in Lion - it's too late. It's already been overwritten - several times. unless I'm quick enough to realise that I have to make a copy of a photo I want to play with and have no intention of saving, and then work on that photo. But even that isn't as simple as loading a photo then doing a "Save As" something else with a new name. There is no "Save As' in Lion.

And as George has already pointed out - Autosave can be a major problem. And as in my example above, it can be a problem in other ways too.

Grrrrr...! And Apple are trying to force me to upgrade to Lion (I have one machine that is upgraded) in order that my MobileMe syncing will switch to iCloud in June and my calendars and contacts will continue to sync. But I MUST upgrade to Lion for that to happen - and I am not upgrading to Lion on my other machines.

So I guess I won't be able to upgrade to Curio 8 either.... bummer!

george · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2007 Posts: 1986

I believe I could create an "enable autosave" preference that's global in scope.

Lion checks to see if autosave should be supported on startup. They force it to be a global setting so it can't be changed from document to document.

I'm make a note to look into it. It's certainly a very easy code tweak.

jjweimer · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject:

jjweimer · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject:

george · Site Admin Joined: 14 Sep 2007 Posts: 1986

Yes, it sounds like Curio 8 and Mountain Lion may be appearing at the same time. Don't worry, I'm not going to require Mountain Lion as a minimum for Curio 8! Smile

Fortunately Lion's autosave is separate from Versions. Curio 8 is using Lion's new autosaving system -- which has some pretty slick features that only a built-in autosaving system could support -- but we're not supporting Versions as mentioned in another thread (http://www.zengobi.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1320).

NightStalker · Joined: 11 Mar 2009 Posts: 83

It would be really good if autosave can be switched off totally.

Switching it off in Curio would be an excellent option, but I wish Lion would allow the option of switching off Autosave and Versions.

That really screws up the way a lot of people (i.e. me) work.

Having it set by default is OK if they're doing a Microsoft and trying to save users from themselves, but I for one would really appreciate the ability to choose NOT to have either Autosave or Versioning, and to have "Save As" back.